Lori Boyer 00:00
Welcome to Unboxing Logistics. I am excited for today’s episode. This is a really unique and special topic that is near and dear to my heart, and just really, really interesting. So buckle up. We’re gonna have a really, really fun day. I’ve invited a couple of my friends and compadres here in the logistics industry from the Summit Advisory Team, Dylan and Jarlath.
They are experts on this topic. You have been wanting to hear what it is, I’m sure. We are gonna be talking about neurodivergence in logistics. Super, super interesting, this topic. A, a recent study found that 58% of people in the logistics and supply chain industry identify as neurodivergent. And this is more than double what you’d see kind of in other industries.
And so, what an opportunity for us to learn what it means. Both of these great gentlemen are neurodivergent, and so they’re gonna talk a little bit about their experiences and advice and how do we take best advantage of the superpower of neurodivergence? How do we help manage and make things sure that everything is just, you know, as smooth as possible. So this is gonna be a really fun, interesting topic. If you are neurodivergent, I would love to hear from you. You can pop in the comments, tell us about your experiences. But Dylan, Jarlath, can you just first quickly, we’ll start with Jarlath, then we’ll go to Dylan, introduce yourself, give us a little bit of the background on who you are.
Jarlath Phelan 01:35
Sure. So I’m Jarlath. I was born in Ireland. Grew up in mostly in Luxembourg. Lived most of my adult life in London, England. Been in the US since 2020. January, 2020. Professionally I’ve been, I’m a little in a little neighboring thing to logistics analytics, you know a lot of data and logistics and I’ve worked in a few different fields.
A few different industries, retail, ecommerce and stuff like that. We use a lot of logistics data. I’m ADHD. I was diagnosed in 2020. Four, 18 months ago, inattentive type in a, what did they call it? Joyous joy. No, what’s the word? Joyous diagnosis. I can’t remember what it is now. There’s, there’s a term for it.
Cause you know, you can do a lot when you, knowledge is power. You can do a lot when you find out. So, yeah.
Lori Boyer 02:27
Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Dylan, tell us about you.
Dylan Telford 02:31
Hey yeah, Dylan Telford I lead a team of outstanding consultants in the omnichannel space. And for myself, I’ve got a autism diagnosis in my early thirties.
And so I think similar to what Jarlath was just saying, it’s, there’s something about how eyeopening it is when you get a, you know, later diagnosis than others. A lot of things about your early life starts to make sense. And you can start putting pieces together that were either scary before or like highly friction full.
You can start to say, oh, I might be able to deal with this differently because now I understand a little bit better on how my brain functions overall. Just like anybody else who goes to therapy for one thing or another, right? It’s, it’s, once you get that self-discovery, I think there’s a lot of doors that could open.
And so it’s been a really great adventure since then and I really love advocating for everyone else that’s going through the same struggles.
Lori Boyer 03:34
Yeah, I love that so much. And from my perspective, I am not neurodivergent. However, my husband is. So, like Jarlath, he was, I diagnosed as ADHD as an adult after one of our kids was diagnosed, which is, I think, fairly common these days.
You know, diagnoses are easier. And once one of my kids was, it was like, oh wait, this kind of looks like Dad as well. So for, you know, our, our regulars here in the Unboxing Logistics family know that I have seven kids. All of them are, are somewhere in the neurodivergence. We have some autism as well. So a couple of kids who are on the autism spectrum and, and a few who are ADHD.
And so it’s an adventure and I’m just really excited to talk about this, this really important topic today. Before we do, one of the things that I really love is I love to hear a person that you admire in the industry. I just love getting shout outs to people who are, are so influential and helpful.
So, Dylan, let’s hear from you first, who is somebody you really admire in the industry, and then Jarlath, you share with us after that?
Dylan Telford 04:42
Sure. As a leader I worked with when I was working at Gap Inc. His name’s Kevin Konz. He leads the entire global logistics team overall. And and just someone who A, came from the floor, right? Like, so he worked in warehouses and then ran warehouses and then ran multiple campuses. And he’s just grown, grown and grown. And he didn’t let that leave him, right?
Like everything that he learned about having boots on the ground you know, personally in his early stages, he’s kept with him and he’s somebody who really understands that the hurdle of change management can often be addressed through culture. And I think that’s very relevant to what we’re speaking about today. But understanding how to change the culture to make change easier is something that a lot of leaders can do. And then you can you know, make a culture of change really in the end.
And you can have people that are ready for new things to come through. And so the friction of putting in a new capability under his leadership at my time at Gap was much lower than in other circumstances that I’ve experienced in the past.
Lori Boyer 05:56
That is fantastic. Shout out to Kevin. And I love that phrase that change management can be made easier or, or done well through culture, and that’s super interesting.
Jarlath, go ahead.
Jarlath Phelan 06:08
Yeah. I put this one a little differently. I went for a role I was thinking about one that I, I never knew existed. I’m in a, in a place where I’m thinking a lot about my food and how things gets to me and like the people who, who, who, who touches it every step of the way.
And then I worked at a closing rental service for a while and their distribution centers, just amazing. Everything that happens there to send clothes out and get them back and then clean them is fascinating and there’s one section of their center where they repair the clothes and there’s this group of people who are like experts in stain removal, repairs.
And there’s this one woman who she was the eye. It was her job to glance at a piece of clothing and say, yes, someone will wear that again, or no. And everything had to be reviewed. And I just, the, the attention to detail, the skill, the knowledge. She was very stylish herself. I just found it really, really impressive.
I just, I love I love people who have, are very experts in their craft, you know they, they, they’ve trained their intuition just to, to do something you just don’t even see. I always really admire that.
Lori Boyer 07:26
Isn’t it so cool when people find roles like that, that fit their talent so well? I think sometimes we get kind of stuck in roles that don’t play up to our ability.
So that is really, really cool role. Okay, so I wanna kind of have our conversation in like two ways today. I wanna talk about what it’s like being neurodivergent and maybe, you know, how, how to manage that. And if so, for our audience who’s listening, if you are neurodivergent, kind of some of the lessons that Dylan and Jarlath have learned.
And then I wanna talk about supporting your colleagues who are neurodivergent at whether you’re in leadership, whether you’re coworkers, and how we can kind of take advantage of it. So, before we jump into sort of the just straight up being neurodivergent in logistics, I, I’d love to hear your take on the statistic that I shared on that study.
What does that surprise you? Are you not surprised? Why do you think that this is true? Jarlath, let’s start with you.
Jarlath Phelan 08:28
Really surprised my first intuition as a data, like data person. I call myself like a, I heard this term maybe 10 years ago, a skeptical optimist. So like, try and have a positive mindset, but always be a little skeptical at first.
So my initial is, 58%, that sounds like that sounds too, might be true. And then once I put that aside, I was like, well it probably, it makes a lot of sense, right? There’s a lot of pattern recognition. There’s a lot of creative thinking required, you know, creating new things, figuring out new ways, and then I was like, well, yeah, it makes total sense that that’s where neurodivergent people are drawn to, you know, that.
I’m always looking at neurotypical people, like, how are you just chipping away at that? How are you getting it done? It’s so, it’s so dull. And then you know, and then and I admire it. And then you know what I’ve, the pattern I’ve seen is, you know, neurodivergent people, you’ll tend to find them working on the hardest problems.
The one that a lot of people are like, that’s too difficult. It’s impossible.
Lori Boyer 09:27
Right? Oh, that’s my husband so much. And he gets into the, like, he can’t release. He, he wants to like figure something out so badly. Like, if you want something found, you go to him because it, it like will make him a little bit crazy.
He can’t finish it. So, Dylan, what about you? What, what were your impressions?
Dylan Telford 09:47
I, I can’t say I’m highly surprised. It’s, it’s always a shock to hear some of these numbers as they come forward. But I wanna throw a few other numbers towards that and kind of tell a little bit more of a story. I was looking up some recent studies on masking, which we, we may talk a little bit about later.
But in short, for anybody that’s not aware, masking is, if you think about literally putting a mask on and pretending like you’re somebody else, take that in your every day. Right? It’s, it’s putting energy into hiding some of the things that may make you who you are. And in neurodiverse people you find that this is a very common thing. And it’s very unhealthy and it’s very draining on energy.
But the, the numbers I saw is two different studies, same year. One said 53% of people who identify as neurodivergent in the workplace mask, they know that they actually mask. The other one said 91%. Right, the gap that’s in there, one of the things that, that made me think of was, was A, why is it so, you know, what was the difference in these audiences?
And if you’re reaching statistical significance, shouldn’t we be in a ballpark? And we’re, we’re very far away when you look at that. First of all, in, in the statistic you threw out, one of the things to identify in there is the word identify as people who it’s, it’s the number of people who identify as neurodivergent, which, some of them have diagnosis, some of them don’t.
And that’s, that’s another topic I’m sure we’re gonna get into later on the. People will see their own patterns in, in others, and they’ll try to play on top of that. And there’s, there’s some value within there. The other side is of that number, when, when you think about the gap and the people who said that they were masking, how many people in the first study were masking that they’re masking?
How many of them carry some level of shame by being asked, do you pretend that you’re, you have different behaviors than you actually naturally do, kind of thing. So I was thinking about that. I was also thinking maybe people in that audience didn’t really understand masking as much, so how can they say? And of that, how many people who are, this is the scariest one for me.
How many people in the study that you looked at did not self-identify as neurodiverse because they were masking that deep? And so when I look at these numbers, what I think of is, what is going on in the culture and in the what level of inclusion are some of these folks working in or not, where they feel the necessity to still be different in front of everybody else?
Lori Boyer 12:34
To be different than who they really are. Yeah. So let’s talk about it then. In the industry, or even just in your careers in general, in your professional lives, how, what kind of barriers have you faced being neurodivergent? What, how do you approach things in a way that is different and, and what do those barriers kind of look like?
Jarlath, let’s, let’s hear from you.
Jarlath Phelan 12:57
I mentioned earlier, we were talking before about how I used to work in mostly in London and being here for the last few years, and it’s a very, very different experience working in UK versus the US So you, you’re really encouraged to put yourself forward here, put your ideas out there, and that kind of naturally leads you to unmask a bit.
And I, I certainly, when I moved here, I found this kind of like, I’m so anxious. Like they really, they wanna know what I actually think. Are they sure? Because they develop like a cultural aspect that plays on top of it.
Lori Boyer 13:30
So some of it was simply not knowing what people really want or what people want from you, is that what you’re saying?
Jarlath Phelan 13:38
It’s hard because, you know, you’re always neurodivergent, so you don’t really get to experience what it’s not like. So it’s really difficult to know, you know? And that’s, that’s what it comes down to. Like know, and I drove myself a little crazy man. Therapist told me I was driving myself a little crazy trying answer. Like, why this? Why that? Like I just, you know, when you first, when I first got diagnosed, it was like, I wonder if it was this, I wonder if it was that. And like some of it’s helpful, but you know, there’s a point at which you just need to accept that, you just are. You just, you don’t know what, what the barriers were, were not.
I think I alluded to one early, you know I used to beat myself up all the time ’cause I found tedious work so hard. And challenging work so easy. And it’s the opposite for most people. And I didn’t really like accept that about myself. I would just kind of be like, ah, I’m lazy, or this, that. But then once I understood my ADHD diagnosis, and that’s a great book, I, I recommend ADHD 2.0.
Boring work is kryptonite. That’s basically if you’re ADHD, you just, the motivation doesn’t just come. And I think, so the big barrier, probably the biggest barrier is self-acceptance. Just kind of accepting who you are. There’s things you’re, you’re well suited to, not suited to, which is something that’s helpful for everyone.
Lori Boyer 14:53
Dylan, what about you?
Dylan Telford 14:55
After I really started going deep into my professional career, so everybody’s had jobs, right? And then like you decide what you wanna do and you start really going after something that is of interest and, and getting much deeper into what you wanna do long term and where you want to grow.
As soon as I really started taking my career seriously and was really taking on that growth and I, I moved into the corporate office environment, which has never been highly exciting for me. But as soon as I moved down for years, year over year, over year, over year, I would get the same comments in my annual reviews, which was, so we talked to some of your colleagues and some other, you know some of the people that work with you fairly often, and we got very common feedback, which is you’re very smart and everybody can go to you for pretty much any answer that they need. But you talk a lot.
And what that really plays into, and for years I was just like, how do I talk less? And I was just trying to figure out all these different ways and then I, when I got my diagnosis, we took a different route. But one of the things that I think is a, is a positive that plays for people. So kind of on the, the converse of looking at the challenges is everybody has a special interest.
People are neurodivergent tend to have tend to, to hyperfocus on their special interest. So when you find somebody who finds a job that they really wanna do, this is very interesting. They’re going to put. Typically a lot of effort into that because they wanna solve the problem.
Lori Boyer 16:33
And define for our audience who don’t know what it would mean to hyperfocus on something.
Dylan Telford 16:37
I think you touched on it a little bit earlier, but it’s not being able to let something go. Right. You start on a problem, you have to finish it, you can’t leave it open. Or it’s extremely stressful for you to leave it open, right? Some, some of us have figured out that we can say, okay, I’m past the time of work.
That makes sense. I need to go live my, my, my life, my personal life at this point. But this isn’t done yet, right? And I really need to finish this, and it’s gonna be important. It’s, it’s gonna tie into tomorrow, and then it’s gonna tie into the next day. And I’m not gonna get anything else done this week if I don’t do this, right?
And it’s just kind of like builds up really fast on top of yourself. But when you hyper focus, you really get into, and you look at details and, and since it’s so interesting to you and you’re hyper-focused, and there you may see things other people don’t see, which is great, but then you also have to explain it.
Lori Boyer 17:24
My husband says that he will think about it. Like, it encompasses everything. So even if he’s not working on it, his mind is thinking about it or he’s searching up YouTube videos on what it could be. Or it, it’s like all encompassing. It’s all he thinks about. Until somehow it’s completed or finished or whatever it is.
And so he will sometimes not eat. I know like when he’s working on so something, I’ll need to bring him food, ’cause he won’t remember to eat. He won’t remember to go to the bathroom. So involved in it that it’s like everything else is gone, which it is. That’s an amazing superpower to get that done, but also difficult, you know?
‘Cause there is life.
Dylan Telford 18:07
Yeah, it is. My, my wife actually does the same thing to me. I, in my personal life, working on music is a special interest of mine and I will be mixing songs on my computer and then all of a sudden it’s darker than it was what seems like a second ago. But it’s probably been 10 hours. And she comes into the room with a sign because I got headphones on and everything with a sign that says you need to stop and use the bathroom, drink some water and eat something.
And it’s, it’s funny because you, you’re just not in that mode. That’s not the thought, that’s not the priority at the time. The priority is to solve this and move on. And to your point, it just sticks with you when you walk away. So even if you have the ability to walk away without kind of blowing up at that moment, it never leaves. It, it’s again, very draining to leave the task unfinished and then, and then try to come back to it. And not everybody who’s on the spectrum or, or, or has ADHD or any other type of neurodiverse conditions that we would talk about here has that same problem. Right. It’s, I think you talk about it’s everybody’s got these very different ways of thinking.
Yeah. But when it does come up, it can play very well to getting to really good solutions for, for problems that exist out there, but that person themself is being drained until that problem is solved in a lot of cases. And I dunno, it’s something that’s, energy, energy draining, but you feel very accomplished once you get to that.
Lori Boyer 19:34
Yes. You get this euphoria kind of. As my husband’s just like, oh. So my question for you is how do you balance? So let’s say we talk about, and Jarlath, I wanna hear about what you do as well. So you get that feedback. And I think this is why people mask a lot, right? Is that there’s this feedback, you’re smart, you’re amazing, loving coming to you, but you’re taking up too much of my time by talking so much.
Right. And so then I think I’ve seen it in my daughters that they, they really work. I know my daughter would be like, okay, I can only raise my hand in class three times. Like I am like the only one talking. Or, and, and I think those are all those kind of things you’re talking about, Dylan, the masking, the trying to fit in with what society deems to be normal or deems to be appropriate for a situation. How do you balance being yourself and also making sure the culture works for everyone?
Dylan Telford 20:31
When I got my diagnosis I learned that the more open I was, the easier it was for people around me to be part of a community of people that’s all trying to make work, you know, when we take it into the, to the workplace, make work as easy as it can be for everybody and comfortable. Lucky to be around some really great people when I got the, the diagnosis, none of them were surprised when it came up. So there’s that as well. But then when I started having the conversation on my compulsion is to give you as much context as possible so that you understand everything that I’m giving to you. But that also might mean that when my wife asks me what a ribbon mic is that I start with, well, first I need to tell you how. Right? Like, and just like go down the history.
Lori Boyer 21:15
Let’s start, start in the 1752 and.
Jarlath Phelan 21:18
Literally two, two hours down the road we were driving Chicago. She asked me that question and I stopped. ’cause I heard snoring.
Dylan Telford 21:24
Just put her to sleep for this entire story. So like. I’m gonna give the context. When you have enough context, my que my ask to people around me is, hey, I’m just gonna keep going, so you need to stop me when you have enough. Or if I’m not answering a question, stop me and say, I understand this piece.
What about this piece? And just get me focused on what it needs to be. And I know, ’cause I’ve had that feedback for so long, I know that I talk a lot so. I’m not, I’m not taking a negative from it at all. It’s, it’s somebody’s just calling me out as to where I am.
Lori Boyer 21:56
So you have to learn to be not sensitive about where, you know, those challenges.
Can you, I love that idea of being open and sharing. Like, look, I know I do this. Let me know when you have enough or not enough. Because I, I could imagine it would be really hard and feel like, you didn’t wanna hear what I had to say or, or something like that. Jarlath, what about you? What have you found that’s, that is helpful or, or what, what can you share with people?
Jarlath Phelan 22:23
A few things. I mean, I’ve tried a few different things. They, as life goes through different phases, something that used to work, don’t work so well anymore and I’m trying new things. One I that came up recently was Dylan. Dylan was talking to his wife. Not stopping at night. I, that’s become a big problem for me the last, or I don’t, I mean, go back to self-acceptance. That’s a pattern I’ve noticed about myself over the last six months or so. It’s just something that happens. Yeah. And when I first got diagnosed, I was told like, get a bunch of timers. Tried that, didn’t work at all. Just made me really stressed, but I was like, you know what?
My wife’s like, you don’t realize how long you’re talking. I’m like, I don’t, I have no idea. It could have been two minutes, it could have been an hour. I really just lose track. It’s everything I’m saying seems like, you know, critical importance and I shouldn’t stop until you understand everything. Right.
After she told me that the last time I just went to my office and got one of the little timers and put it on the dining table and said, just, just turn it to a couple of minutes. Whenever you feel like I’ve lost, you know, I’ve lost myself and I’m just, we haven’t tried it yet. We’ve also suggested, like holding, I’ve suggested for years, like, should we just hold, like a talking stick or a talking ball or something like that, you know, just, just to keep, stay present in the moment.
The one that I do for myself that seems to, to work. Quite well, just really excessively intense exercise seems to be very, very effective for me, particularly when I’m in like a quieter phase. So the last two weeks I’ve got up at 4:30 and I’m going to CrossFit at 5:15. And I’ve been doing that about 10 years, like that.
That seems I started, once I started that, that seemed to help a lot. That in combination with like I practice mindfulness meditation. That helps me kind of stay more self-aware. There are two things like that I hope to continue forever. They seem to just be constants that always keep me centered.
I think that coming back to yourself is important.
Lori Boyer 24:22
I’m gonna go ahead and share. I’ve created a list ’cause they’re all fantastic specific coping skills that you guys have talked about. Meditation, exercise, timers. Now I have two daughters on the ADHD who have ADHD and they have used timers mainly for that time blindness.
Kind of like Dylan simply because they had that exact thing, like my daughter college student and she’ll be like, wow. I sat down at 8:00 AM and suddenly it’s midnight and I’m still working on this project. I realize haven’t done anything. So she found that having something buzz, it had to be a buzz on her arm, kind of helped her track the fact that time was going by, not even necessarily do anything else. Being open about it and just letting people know, hey, I’ve got this challenge. I’m aware of it. I know that I talk too much. It’s interesting as you guys talk about talking too much. ‘Cause my husband who has ADHD talks so much.
But he said he’d feel so frustrated, he’d feel, he said, I feel like I’m not being able to talk enough. And I would say, but if you actually looked at the time, you’re talking like twice as much as me. Like say we’re having an argument, a discussion, and he realized his problem was, he felt like he was almost measuring it in how many points he could get across.
Where I could get a point across really fast and he would have to kind of wander around it a little bit before he’d land the plane for the point. And so maybe he didn’t get as many points across. And so there was a lot of extra talking and, and he’s worked on that as well. And, but I love Dylan’s point to let people know, hey, this is how you can help me.
Put your hand up. Say, oh yeah, I got that. Feel free to interrupt. I think that that’s healthy. When you’ve had that conversation, then you’re not gonna feel as offended maybe that they interrupted you and say, yeah, just jump in and let me know if you understand what I’m saying. Those are all really good, solid, actionable things that anyone listening today can go out and try some different things.
I love as well. Both of you kind of touched on needing to experiment. Different people, different things will work well, different times of life. Jarlath, that was a great point that, you know, what worked maybe in one situation or at one time of life might not work later. Anything else, I guess in terms of advice for people who are neurodivergent to be able to be themselves and not need to mask too much, but also be accommodating to your coworkers.
Dylan Telford 26:51
Yeah, I, I’m gonna throw another one out that is, it’s still asking for the concession from somebody. But I have a condition where I am unable to interpret compliments. So I don’t get, I don’t, I don’t feel embarrassed or anything like that when they come up, it is like somebody is coming up to you with urgency in a language you’ve never heard of or can’t relate to anything.
So you can’t even say, okay, I gotta go look up Ukrainian to figure out what this person’s saying to me. You have no like angle to go from, right? It is. It is just completely alien. And it’s fine in little spurts, right? Hey, you did great on this. And then just it leaves, it comes in. It’s a little confusing for me.
I know. Because I’ve, you know, lived amongst other people for so long kind of things like I know. It’s appropriate to say thank you and it’s appropriate to appreciate the thought, and I can do that. But it’s a separated it’s like compartmentalized, if you will. So while it’s happening, I can’t go through any of it while it’s happening.
I’m just trying to figure out what’s being said to me and why it’s being said to me that way. And what ends up happening is I get really stressed. And so if it goes very deep when you’ve got these awards and like if I ever won a lifetime achievement award, and you got the person up there kind of going through the list of things for 40 minutes on why this person’s being given that, like, I would just explode completely within there.
Lori Boyer 28:18
Okay. It makes you feel uncomfortable.
Dylan Telford 28:20
Well, it, it, it’s uncomfortable because I just, I’m not processing it appropriate. And so I’ve had a time where I had a supervisor, I, I was being given an award and it was over Zoom. And he was going through everything that I did to get the award, and it was too much.
And so he’s telling me all these positive things and I’m sitting there going like this, and I’m sweating. And so he is like, what’s the problem? I’m like, you need to stop. And I’m like, I didn’t know. We didn’t get to this point because I, I’m not sitting here saying I’m gonna win every award on the planet or whatever, but like, when you’re gonna give me a compliment on something, I really need you to be shortened to the facts on it, and that’s gonna help me interpret it better and lower my stress.
I can’t explain why I, why this is the way that it is, but when you go too deep like that, you stress me out when, so now I’ve given that feedback to people when I’m in circumstances where things are gonna be discussed that are like that, and when they accommodate, they just go very quickly. Hey, you did a great job on this and you’ve been nominated for this award and you’ve won it, and that’s it.
Lori Boyer 29:22
That’s super interesting. And I think while not everybody may have that with with praise or with compliments, it could be in general, in the neurodivergence community. The what may feel natural when you’re neurotypical does not feel natural, so you may feel uncomfortable or you may feel, you may not interpret things correctly.
You could get confused by things that social cues and whatnot. Have you, do you have any of those kind of things, Jarlath?
Jarlath Phelan 29:51
Anytime I’m at like a company awards thing or my gym did an awards thing at Christmas, I basically just have anxiety the whole time. Like, are they gonna call me? Are they not gonna call me?
Did I work hard enough? I just can’t stop. Like ruminating, I guess is the word we haven’t used. Like that’s one of the, we’re talking hyper focus and you have a helpful thing to solve. Then it’s great. The mind just will go and go and go and you, you might be the, you know the person who cracks it and it’s great and you have fun on the way.
The negative side is something comes to you that you don’t, that for whatever reason, you just can’t think positively about and just get stuck in it. So, yeah. I hate, I hate awards ceremonies. We, one company I was at, they wanted to boost like the morale and they came up with let’s do awards. And I just, I went, no.
Can’t we just all work together for the greater good? That’s just, I don’t wanna stand out. It just, it doesn’t, it doesn’t resonate with me for whatever reason. I think that’s a little imposter syndrome as well. Like a very common thing. I, I have that like all the time. I’m like, those compliments. I’m like, you’re, no, you’re, you’re trying to get something for me.
There’s no way this is true. But like the mind just kinda kind of goes there. I don’t know if that’s like associated with the late diagnosis. ‘Cause that’s, that’s one thing that comes up, you know, if you’re, you grow up not knowing this about yourself, not feeling as accepted as you, as perhaps your peers do.
Maybe it’s develops as you grow up. I don’t really know. Other, it’s a reality as, as a, as an adult has diagnosed that you’re just like, I’m not so sure. So yeah, that’s a big one for me.
Lori Boyer 31:24
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And I think, so as I’m thinking of it as a leader, you know, and I have a team, what I may think is like, oh, they’re gonna be so happy because I’m gonna just show everyone this person’s amazing. Surprise!
You know? And, and that may be the very last thing they want. So let’s talk then about advocating for yourself. So that you can get that. And then let’s talk about what you, maybe if you’ve had examples of people doing well. I know Dylan, you’ve kind of shared a little bit about that in, in advocating for yourself.
But what can people do, especially if you’re in leadership? We know now 58% of people probably at least are neurodivergent here in our industry. So what, question one. And, and again, I know your journey is, is very short, Jarlath you know, you have only been diagnosed shortly, Dylan’s a little bit longer, but are there things you’ve done Jarlath to help advocate for yourself?
And then Dylan, you share as well? Let’s start with Jarlath.
Jarlath Phelan 32:25
I think so, but I don’t, I didn’t really, I don’t think I really thought about it that way at the time. The thing I’m working on at the moment is my assertiveness to assert myself better, assert my opinion and needs better. So that’s something I’m actively working on.
In terms of advocating, I think, I think I used to do a bit, had a bit aggressive about it in hindsight ’cause I kind of was like, not like you know, just didn’t understand why it was so hard for the other person to get me. I was like, wait. Don’t you experience this well? And the answer was no. They don’t.
Lori Boyer 33:00
We all assume everyone’s thinking and experiencing life the way we do. So you’re like, why are you doing this? This is so uncomfortable.
Jarlath Phelan 33:08
I look back and I remember like I, I had a CFO, I worked with since, working with him, and he used to do things. He would give me like good feedback and things like that.
He told me, I was just like, I’ve moved too fast, I think too fast. This is very helpful for me getting my diagnosis. Like he went on to become CEO and had a fabulous exit and I was like, this guy who’s hugely successful, incredibly intelligent, told me I was thinking too fast. And I wouldn’t explain things like enough steps.
I was like, okay, that’s, that sounds about right. But he used to do like little things that helped me feel like seen and I think this is what I wanna try and advocate more. He used to bring in his son’s math homework. They, every few weeks he’d have like a question and the son couldn’t answer, or the textbook answer didn’t make sense.
And he’d, he’d come down to my desk and he’d be like, right, so I’ve got another one. And we’d sit there for 20 minutes on the whiteboard, kind of during the son’s math homework. And for whatever reason, that just and I like, and I think what I, what I’m learning to advocate is like to just treat me as an individual.
Like I’ve had a few managers who are just like, well, your, your colleague X or Y can do this or that. I’m like, yeah, I don’t know why I’m not like them. And so that’s, that’s something I’m trying to advocate more. I might have the same job title, but I, I’m a different person.
Lori Boyer 34:29
Yes. That’s, no, that’s fantastic. That comparison. It just like, we’re not supposed to compare our kids.
It’s really similar. Don’t compare your, your team members. Everybody has different strengths and weaknesses, and they’re gonna respond really differently to what motivates them. Dylan, what, what about you? What have you found is helpful with advocating?
Dylan Telford 34:47
When you have a voice where other people might feel like they don’t being the one that speaks up to maybe ask the questions that people who are more shy, maybe people who are masking in these cases or they won’t ask. I worked with a, a gentleman previously that he was on a he had diagnosis of autism as well, and we were on a call with leaders across the entire company going into reviews and it was talking about what we should be doing as leaders to have the best experience possible with our employees while we’re talking through with them. And they were talking a lot about things like eye contact and they were talking about a lot of things like you know, the, the way that you ask certain questions or the tone that you use as you’re speaking or anything like that.
And this gentleman spoke up and raised his hand and said, that’s all great, but what you just described is not inclusive of any of our neurodivergent employees. And just even that, he opened the door for a whole bunch of people who may have had diagnosis, may have felt like they’re on the spectrum, one thing or the other.
To sit there and think, ah, this was uncomfortable for me. And now somebody else has actually opened that up. So. In, in taking that lead and I really connected the dot on if we were having some other conversation where maybe I’m an expert and other people aren’t that are in the room, but they don’t know what questions to ask.
I’ll ask questions even if I know the answer to them, to try to open up that it’s okay to ask questions and open the door for maybe other questions that that might trigger. I try to do the same thing. Is whenever there’s a chance to have a conversation where we can talk about how we behave differently and I’m able to open up in there something about you know, this, this community of folks in the workplace.
I have had very good results on people A coming to me, opening up to me directly, but then, you know, getting the courage to open up a little bit more broadly to others and that they’ve had success in doing so. So I think from an advocating standpoint, it’s creating that environment where you are, you are driving inclusion by just saying things aren’t the same.
Lori Boyer 37:02
Yeah. I love the idea of as a neurotypical, you know, coworker or leader being able to advocate for, and so that, that means a little bit of a level of understanding though. And I feel like also from you gentlemen, as we were talking about, you need to understand your own areas that maybe are different from what other people are.
So you can advocate for yourself to say like, oh, I, I talk a little bit too much, or my mind moves too fast, or, so it, it does require kind of some understanding. Unfortunately, we’re running out of time and I, we need like part 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 of this. But if you had one piece of advice. Or, or if you have seven pieces of advice, whatever.
What is your advice for leaders, specifically leaders out there? I know there’s a lot of you in the audience. The majority of your workers in this industry are likely neurodivergent. You probably don’t know that. You probably are unaware of who that may be with the masking, the hiding, the, the keeping, trying to fit in.
What can these leaders do? You’ve, you’ve touched on some great things already, but if you have some final advice, anything we’ve missed, let’s, let’s get that here today and, and throw it in the comments. If you wanna hear more, we can have a lot of topics on everything from hyper focus to how do you take, you know, that hyper focus and use it as a superpower.
What are some, some things that we’ve done so we could get into more. So let me know if you wanna hear more episodes, but let’s start with Jarlath and then we’ll end with Dylan. Jarlath. Any just sort of final advice in the last few minutes?
Jarlath Phelan 38:47
Yeah, I think the one that always resonated strongly with me before and after diagnosis was creating a workplace where feels psychologically safe.
I think that’s a term that kind of encompasses quite well a good, workplace promotes inclusivity, whether it’s neurodivergence or something else, just somewhere where people can be themselves with diagnosed, not diagnosed using the terms or not, whatever it is, you know? ‘Cause some people are, you know, this, some stigma that comes with it.
You know, you want, you know it, but you don’t want to tell people or goes in their journey. I, I think I knew it for two years, but it was in denial. My, my wife’s ADHD. Was kind of took me a long time to go, I’m gonna go get assessed. It took them 10 minutes. That was like, you know you just kinda, you need to, you don’t wanna be like, set back or anything.
So, yeah, psychological safety I think’s the big one, you know, if someone comes and says, I need this, you know, they shouldn’t, they shouldn’t have to go to the doctor and produce a note. In most circumstances. I’m sure there’s exceptions, you know, but asking people to prove they need it. I, I think just trust people, you know, that’s the best thing to, best thing to do.
Some people will take advantage of it. It’s inevitable. But you know, I think it’s for, for the greater good. It’s, it’s best won, promote that psychological safety or work.
Lori Boyer 40:10
Yeah. Dylan.
Dylan Telford 40:12
My biggest piece of advice is back to that, that word inclusion is don’t take this conversation or the conversations that you’ve had that have kind of pointed you towards this topic and over index and hyperfocus yourself on, what do you do with this community? There’s this great illustration that’s out there on the difference between exclusion, segregation, integration, and an inclusion, and just the high level. You’ve got a group here.
Then just kind of these other folks are, that’s exclusion. You’ve said these ones belong and, and these are just kind of everybody else. Then you’ve got segregation, right? You’ve got a group here, and then you’ve drawn a circle around a group here, but you haven’t brought ’em together. They’re two completely separate things.
Then you’ve got integration where you take that second circle and you move it inside the big circle, but it’s still its own circle. Included, but it’s still this own little, little pocket that kinda sits around there. Inclusion is truly all the different circles and squares and triangles and everything inside that hole.
It’s really bringing in, so you’re not creating quiet places to work in the office for people who are neurodivergent. You’re creating quiet places in the office for people who may need time that is quieter than others for what they do. And that could be anybody. You’re not considering people wearing headphones at their desk as a concession for people who have a disability.
It is, if you work better and you’re more efficient at what you do with headphones, sure. As long as you’re able to get your job done, right, it’s, we should be finding the way and really acknowledging that everybody thinks differently. We should be finding the ways that we’re making people, giving people the ability to be as effective as possible in the jobs that they have. We hired them for it, we interviewed them.
We, we understand their skillsets. Allow ’em to put ’em to play. Don’t take that step too far where you draw a circle around it. Keep it with everybody.
Lori Boyer 42:15
It’s, I’ve heard a saying once, the opposite of fitting in is belonging, which is interesting. Fitting in is just trying to make yourself like every other person.
Belonging is you are yourself and you belong. And that sounds exactly what you were saying. There are so many. It’s a great point. There are so many people who have different strengths, different weaknesses, different working styles, different learning styles, and as, especially as leaders, that is our job is to make sure everyone belongs, not that everyone just fits into the box that we want ’em to fix into, fit into.
So. Fantastic discussion. I’m super inspired by both of you and I’m really inspired to think about my own team and what I can do to make sure that we are making sure everyone belongs and that they are living up to their potential. So thank you so much for being here. This has been a fantastic episode.
Appreciate you both so much.
Dylan Telford 43:14
Thank you for having us. Anybody who’s listening, please reach out if you have more questions as well. We are happy to.
Lori Boyer 43:21
Great point, great point. Where can they get in contact with you? Jarlath? Are you on LinkedIn?
Dylan Telford 43:26
Yeah. Yeah. There’s only one Jarlath Phelan on LinkedIn, so I’m easy to find.
Lori Boyer 43:31
The benefits of a unique name. So go to LinkedIn, connect with these guys, talk to them. They can give you suggestions. So, fantastic episode. Thank you again so much. And leave us a note in the comments, like, subscribe, all those things. Let us know what questions you have and we’ll see you next time.
